I am not asking for much: lessons in survival

ELE OF THE DARK by Yace Sula

In this experimental short, a nonbinary visual artist contemplates their relationship with darkness and its hold on their complexion, trauma and queerness.

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an inheritance: thoughts on Black rage and grief by Kosisochukwu Nnebe

In ‘an inheritance: thoughts on Black rage and grief’, Kosisochukwu Nnebe ponders the relationship between Black rage, grief and violence, while replicating the steps taken by enslaved Africans to create a powder derived from cassava (a naturally poisonous plant indigenous to South America) with which to poison their slave masters. The video depicts the first step (cutting and peeling the cassava) and imagines it as part of a broader recipe passed down from generation to generation – a transmission from ancestors long gone – for how to assert one’s subjectivity in the face of an (un)livability that persists in the wake of transatlantic slavery, as described by academic Christina Sharpe. Turning to forgotten histories of resistance and refusal, the work acts as a meditation on Black rage, not as something to be choked down and repressed, but as a generative and liberatory form of affect. 

Mahlet Cuff
00:12 – Hello, my name is Mahlet Cuff and I’m happy to present, I am not asking for much: lessons in survival, a curated screening through BlackFlash Expanded. Today I’ll be in conversation with Yace Sula about their film, Ele of the dark and Kosisochukwu Nnebe about her film, an inheritance: thoughts on Black rage and grief.

00:30 – I’m located on Treaty 1 Territory in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is the traditional homelands of Anishinabeg, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dene, and the homeland of the Metis nation. And, our water is stolen from Shoal like 40.

00:41 – For my visual description, my- background is blurred. I’m a black femme presenting person with short, curly black hair, brown round glasses, wearing a cream colored turtleneck with a checkered sweater on top and wearing silver earrings.

00:54 – Before we begin, I’d like to thank the artists for their time and energy working with me for the screening. I’m so grateful. And, I hope you enjoy the work as much as I do. As well, I want to thank the folks at BlackFlash, but specifically Christina Battle, who -for being so understanding, so accommodating, and like the best person to dream big with.

01:15 – And now into introducing the program and the artists. So, the phone program, I’m not asking for much: lessons in survival, are describing the process of treading through emotions, realizations, conclusions that come from a place of resting, sitting and introspection.

01:30 – Getting to that position often involves collecting the tools and resources that can preserve us. An inner dialogue that one has with themselves not always visible to outsiders who do not experience the same internal work.

01:43 – The assumption is that when a conflict arises, we must act on it, consummate it and throw it away. In the context of state violence, the burden is often inflicted onto groups that are most susceptible to harm. They’re asked to move forward and not to question what has been done. And this program kind of questions like, what if we didn’t rush through things with hope of sweeping things underneath the rug, but also, to not only survive, but live beyond what is expected of us? So thinking of moments of contemplation, who do we lean on? What history do we turn to? Or what does this process look like?

2:11- So, today, I’ll be talking with the amazing artists, Yace and Kosi. Yeah, if you could both introduce yourselves, talk a bit about the work and the premise around it. And we can start with Yace.

Yace Sula
02:26 – Yes, thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here. And yes, I am Yace Sula. I am a writer, director, visual artist, actor occasionally. But I like to say, creature of constant performance, if I could, like, capture all of that into one thing.

02:49- And yes, my short film is, Ele of the dark, and the general premise of it is, looking at a non binary person and they’re complicated relationship with darkness over time, and at specific periods of time, as well. So, it’s kind of like a hybrid of a time capsule. But also like, reflection from a future standpoint. And yeah, that’s the premise of Ele of the dark.

03:25- And my image description, i’m a dark skinned Black person, brunette hair, gray hoodie on and my background is blurred.

Mahlet
3:37 – Thanks, Yace.

Kosisochukwu Nnebe
03:41 – So yeah, my name is Kosisochukwu Nnebe and I’m a Nigerian Canadian visual artist. So, my work tends to talk about issues, very closely tied to my own personal lived experience, and the histories of migration of my family from Nigeria to here. And, I think a lot of my work initially was really focused on coming from Nigeria to Canada at the age of five, and really contending with what it means to be Black, which is something of course, that’s very specific to being in North America versus being on the African continent.

04:17 – And so, I turned a lot to the work of theorists such as Franz Fanon to really engage with the process of racialization. And so that became a huge theme within my work. And from there, I’ve been engaging with what I haven’t been able to kind of speak to those other aspects of my identity. So really wanting to connect with non western ways of knowing and specifically evil cosmology and so on.

04:41 – And so this particular work and inheritance is kind of in-between. My work has always focused a lot on knowledge production, and how knowledge is produced within the margins of society. So looking at the work of Bell Hooks and her theory around the margins as a space of resistance.

5:03 – And with this particular piece, I was thinking a lot about some of the feelings and forms of affect that I don’t feel as though I’m allowed to express in public realm as easily as other forms of black affect that are easily consumed such as Black suffering, and Black pain. But also black joy has been something that’s been put forward as a way of kind of moving away from from the other end of the spectrum. And so I started turning towards black rage, as that feeling that is one that is constantly with me, but I struggled to express.

05:40 – And I wanted to find a way of rethinking that relationship to Black rage in a way that connects me back to histories of enslavement, and resistance towards the transatlantic slave trade. That is really how black blackness emerges. It emerges from the history. So wanting to go to the origins of that, as a way of kind of rethinking the options that are available to me now, living again, in the wake of transatlantic slavery in this kind of anti-blackness and unlivability that we find ourselves in, that’s a direct result of it.

06:16 – And so in the in the in the short film, which is one element of a broader project, I basically turned to cassava, and the histories around cassava, in a plant that’s indigenous to South America, but naturally poisonous. Cassava has an important role to play in West Africa. In Nigeria, it’s often confused as being actually indigenous to West Africa, but it’s actually from South America, which is something I learned.

06:45 – And so the knowledge of how to process the poison out of cassava comes from Indigenous communities, the Taino and Arawak, in particular, but that knowledge was passed on to the Portuguese, but also to enslaved Africans. And what you see is that there are these

07:02 – within these catalogs written by British botanists in places like Jamaica, kind of, you know, describing the flora and fauna. They talk about how cassava is processed but they also mentioned, there’s one kind of process by which instead of trying to remove the boys in enslaved Africans actually try and increase the concentration in order to make a poison with which to poison their slave masters. And so this opens up a whole other world for me as to how what other options we have in terms of resisting this and livability. And I kept thinking about what, what would actually get someone to risk their lives, attempting to poison someone who controls has all the power within this kind of context. And you’re risking your life in an attempt to assert your agency, assert your subjectivity, assert your, your humanity. And so I felt as though what was kind of pushing, that kind of that form of action was rage, and rage, not at something that we see as uncontrollable, not as something that we’re constantly trying to push down on. But rage as some as a moment in which we realize that enough is enough, then something has to change. So as a total kind of rejection of the status quo and total rejection of the situation one finds themselves in, and a desire to take risks, and to risk everything in order to affect change.

08:26 – And so rage became a very different kind of form of affect than what I initially kind of entered the project thinking it was. And so the video is one of the steps for making that poison. So the first step in cutting and peeling cassava, and it’s a it’s a reflection. So it’s a snippet from a talk I gave about the project, where I reflect on the relationship between black rage, black grief and violence. And so that is what you see in the screening.

Mahlet
08:57 – Thank you. Thanks for like that, roundup so I feel like folks that are not like familiar with the histories of cassava root, and like that whole history of just like taking that risk, right? And what does that mean to take that risk to potentially you could save yourself but also you could end up unfortunately, dead, you know, and like, those risks for those women and what does it mean to like live past the livability you’re talking about? Right? And like that survival aspect. But yeah, I wanted to ask for the both of you and also the Yace wanted to add some questions.

Yace
09:29 – I was gonna say I’m Gambian I’m also a West African so I didn’t know the history of cassava leaf to that, or cassava to that extent. So that yeah, I just learned something. Because I thought that was one of ours you know.

Kosisochukwu
09:43 – Yeah, no it’s not.

Yace
09:45 – That’s interesting to know.

Kosisochukwu
09:47 – It’s fascinating when you think about it within the West African context because cassava is like one of the biggest Atlanta one of the biggest sources of like, you know, just food.

Yace
09:55 – Yeah,

Mahlet Cuff
10:01 – But in terms of my next question, I guess can be can we start with Kosi or we can start with the Yace in terms of like, getting, putting these works together because me and Kosi were back and forth about this video, but specifically adding like more aspects to it. And then, for Yace, I know we’ve had conversations in terms of this is your first experimental film? And like, what does it mean to get to that place? And maybe some risks you took in the films potentially so whoever wants to answer first but I can see Kosi nodding a lot so maybe you want to start.

Kosi
10:31 – No, I spoke a lot. i spoke a lot, so i’m going to let Yace go first.

Yace
10:36 – Okay, yeah, no problem. Yeah so, it was, I guess it was more so like an analysis of like, specific stages of my life. I think, first confronting, like, my experiences with anti blackness, you know, I was raised to understand and to expect racism to become prevalent in my life.

11:05 – And you know, as a kid, there was like some aspects of me being naive. And then as I got older, I was able to understand that but I think colorism was something that I kind of feel or look at it as a form of betrayal almost because it was something that I never expected.

11:27 – And it quickly became such a violent, prevalent part of my world, especially at the point where I hit my formative years. So around like 11-12, middle school into high school, I became or I was reminded or shown that my blackness was explicitly different. And I also think of that in the context of being West African, with having certain features having 4C hair and such and so on, and how my blackness was read in comparison to even my other black friends in our friend group, because I was always the darkest person, whether that be in class or whether that be within friends.

12:14 – And so I just wanted to reflect on how that’s been such a violent experience. How that like contributed to gender performance, um, at specific points in my life. And so in looking at the film process, I kind of began by writing down thoughts of colorism, but also looking at it from a sense of darkness in general.

12:43 – Because I like looking at moral ambiguity within Black people and how we navigate that because of respectability politics, like this, we’re we’re technically especially if you’re dark skinned, you’re like walking on thin ice through most aspects of life.

13:01 – And so I wanted to look at colorism, but from how that you are read through your behavior, through varying social settings, in romantic scenarios, and so on. And so I started writing my thoughts about darkness, darkness as a word that’s used to, that has a negative connotation.

13:23 – My gripe with that being used, that word being used, that way. Even though as I was growing up I’d use dark to describe things negative or just in general it’s something that I’ve definitely grown out of as a developing politic, because I didn’t realize how that kind of has affected dark skinned people as a whole, within blackness.

13:49 – And so I was writing down thoughts about it, the word dark, how colorism has affected me. And then , I reflected on my upbringing dealing with a volatile, violent home situation, and how I was the black sheep in my family essentially. And again, interrogating darkness in that way. How I veered off because I was raised in a conservative home, and I definitely veered off that path. So journaling about that and then came to using voice memos to record my thoughts about darkness and the varying aspects of my identity.

14:34 – So I started looking at darkness in terms of queerness you know, and, you know, my parents, you know, their, you know, reaction to me coming out and how I think that that was like a overhead fear of theirs in raising me.

14:55 – Darkness in terms of my sexual expression. Dark, you know, looking at the identity of being a whore or a slut, you know, darkness prescribed to that identity. And so, then I made like this theme board, so that I could like be more focused on what I want to say, if I wanted to do this in terms of film, and I thought experimentally, it would be the best, because, I had mentioned this before but, I feel that there aren’t any rules in terms of experimental filmmaking in the way it would be for a narrative project.

15:39 – So I made a theme board and, there was like, which would later become the four central vignettes you see in the film. So there was like these motifs or symbolic imagery within each vignette or section, from like flames to blood as a reoccurring image, to the color of green, and apples, and pink as a color in relation to gender performance.

16:09 – But there was this overarching or consistent show of darkness through each vignette in its own way whether, that be through through light, or the absence of it, or a specific type of light, like there’s certain parts where there’s night vision, but you would know that, in the context of that, obviously, this character is in a dark setting.

16:38 – So there’s various forms of trying to create dark imagery. But using a lot of color at the same way, because when you are someone who is dark, no matter what color setting you’re in, and whether you’re whatever aspect of your identity that you are dark, whether that be through being queer, or, again, being a whore, or being dark skinned, or whatever identity you have, that is the antithesis to the light or to respectability, or to whiteness, even, no matter what setting you’re in your darkness will always follow you. The light isn’t really attainable to you. And so that was essentially the process in making the film.

17:25 – And in terms of inspiration, I was raised heavily on Nollywood, and black American cinema. And so my mom had like, probably over 500 tapes from like the, you know, the best era of Nollywood, I feel, from like the early 2000s into like, the teens. And so what I liked about it was, a lot of the women in many of the films that I loved, women who like stood against oppressive men, or women that kind of veered off of cultural norms.

18:01 – At the time, the intent of the movie was to portray those women as cautionary tales, but today, you know, better politics, you know, and better understanding of, you know, patriarchal violence, you can see that these women, for me, they weren’t cautionary tales, but they were so much of what I aspired to be, not in terms of, with womanhood, but in terms of moving against forced creations of identity, almost. And so with Ele as a character, the fictional being that’s kind of based off of elements of my life in the film, Ele was meant to be this cautionary tale, it was meant to, you know, be something that a child, there’s references to a child in the film, and it’s Ele as a dark being, I’m kind of rambling, but I’m going to tie it all together. Ele is, is that person or being or, you know, image of darkness, whether they see it or not, that the child was eventually going to be. So it’s kind of like a F you to the to that type of cinema that, you know, created that archetype or trope of women. And I was heavily inspired by that. And then just also, films were central characters, specifically, Black characters were dealing with issues of moral ambiguity, which I also found in Nollywood. And then just looking at my younger self, as an inspiration almost.

19:47 – You know, my parents always used to say when we say 1 you do 2, and I was always the, you know, and I own that title, but I was like a problem child growing up. And I think it was inevitable that I was going to be the person that I am today in some form, because I was always going to reject the identity that was forced upon me. So I just pulled a lot. I think I didn’t realize how much I disliked the binary as a kid.

20:18 – And I think about all the times that I went against it, and I realized that this was like, an inevitable point for me. I just had to like, you know, be in the moment and live within that period of time to get to this point now. So yeah, I said a lot. But that’s essentially it. It was a very, like, it was like five months of editing, and still refilming and adding things to it. Because I shot some things. It’s shot. I began, like shooting it in July of last year. And then, then I just kept shooting and editing, shooting and editing.

21:03 – I don’t like this color, but I want to include this color. So it was a very just like, wild process. So yeah, that was making, Ele of the dark, if that, if there was anything coherent there.

Mahlet
21:14 – Thank you for that, Yace. Kosi in terms of your inspirations for this film and the process of making this film.

Kosisochukwu
21:21 – Yeah, so this film was part of a broader project that was presented at the Agnes Etherington in Kingston. So it’s part of a group exhibition called brown butter that was bringing together black artists and black chefs and examining blackness through the lens of food, which was really exciting.

21:40 – And so this particular video is just one of a series of six videos that show the six different steps, from making that poison that’s kind of derived from cassava but is actually made out of, it’s actually a powder. So basically, it will be actually easier if I describe all the steps.

22:01 – The steps for making the poison, it’s basically, you cut and peel the cassava, you grate it, you ring out all of the liquid, and then that liquid actually putrefies and through that eutrophication process, you have worms that grow in the liquid, and kind of concentrate the cyanide content and the poison is actually powdered, the powdered worms. And so all of those steps are depicted in a series of six videos that were shown at the Agnes for that exhibition. And essentially through conversation with you, we ended up deciding on trying to bring one of these that would fit within the kind of time constraints, but also overlaying it with audio from a talk that I gave on the on the project, where I just spoke to a lot of those themes around like Black rage, and I spoke a lot about bell hooks in her essay, a killing rage, which I found so inspiring, because bell hooks is someone who had spent so much time talking about love, you know, wrote the book all about love, and so on, saw that as a form of liberation, and was really trying to get Black people to rethink love. And to come to it in a different way. And then to have her in the first line of that essay starts with, there’s a white man that I long to kill.

23:31 – That’s how it starts off. And it’s violent, and it’s all about rage. And to have her speak, to rage with such care, and honor rage and in a way that I think we oftentimes don’t want to do when it comes to black rage. I think that’s on the part of whiteness, I think that’s on a part of blackness, in terms of respectability politics, but it’s also as a form of self-, survival, right? It’s a rage that if we let out, if we express, if we actually direct towards the actual target, which is whiteness, we risk more violence.

24:05 – And so we learn to hold it in, and it creates violence within us. And so I had just been feeling a lot of this rage and I think I’d had personal experiences that made it such that I had to label it as rage. I had to label it as something that felt very corrosive within me and I knew would be corrosive when it came out. And I felt as though I needed to find a way to not continue to kind of try and tamper it and to kind of try and like hold it down, but really to actually breathe life into it.

24:35 – Because what the film tries to do and what I actually experienced as I was going through those different steps, is that it’s- it’s not this uncontrollable thing, what it can do, what rage can achieve is the magnitude of it, the scale of it. There’s a devastation that it can achieve. There’s an eradication of systems that it can achieve. And so we see that as uncontrollable violence because it aims at literally obliterating a system. And so when you think about Frantz Fanon and concerning blackn concerning violence, his chapter, rage, violence and rage are those things that allow you to totally reverse the social order, or to reverse the world order. And so rage becomes this integral aspect, an element of world building, right? Because you’re tearing down one world, and that gives you the opportunity to create a new one.

25:29 – And so, being able to sit with, like when I was going through the steps, and kind of embodying the knowledge and the perspectives that would have led people to come to this point.

25:40 – It’s-it’s a-it’s a laborious process, like six steps, and it’s a lot of work. And, you know, my hands were hurting as I was going through the process of cutting and peeling the cassava wringing and grating at each step, there has to be is this kind of revalidation of why it is that I’m doing this. And I think what’s kind of fascinating and kind of gets to one of your other questions is that I realized that what had to motivate you to go through all of this, to risk everything almost had to be more than just range. It had to be and it might sound cheesy, but it’s actually really true. I kept on feeling like there was this, this feeling of love, for oneself love for one’s community love for one’s humanity. That really was the driving force, right? It’s this deep sense of self love. That means that you are no longer willing to accept anything other than a world that will accept you and will create space for you as you are. And if that’s not possible, you will tear everything else down. And so that became a very, very powerful feeling. And I think it’s one that really changed me and kind of like, still-is still with me now. So I think of rage as something that is extremely powerful when it’s harnessed.

Mahlet
26:55 – Yeah, yeah because when you first were speaking about bell hooks and like how she, you know, wrote the book about love, she’s like, the expert. But then you mentioned now like, to have rage, you have to have love because sometimes we love so hard, we love our community so much, it makes us angry, you know. And so we need those things are totally hand in hand. And I think oftentimes people think like, no love is separate, rage is separate and like, we have to combine those things.

27:20 – But as well, to your speaking to just letting all the rage out. Because when we hold it down, and when it sits with us, it creates- it doesn’t feel good. And on top of that it doesn’t-it’s not even, like productive. But it’s just like those things have to be let out. And those moments of rage have to be kind of, as you’re doing in those six processes, like those six steps, like I imagine the rage is being slowly pulled out.

27:41 – Right? And then you get this result of what you- you’re doing. Right? So I love- and you’re speaking to that and just like, yeah, rage is so, I love- I love rage. It’s something that more folks, I think, should not see the negative thing. It isn’t. It isn’t a negative thing. It’s something that has made us able for us to process. I think specific for Black folks, I think we’re often told, you know, don’t be angry about this thing. Or if it’s about racism or white supremacy, whatever it’s like, you know, get over it, or even just be okay with it.

28:09 – And it’s like we, I think as a community, oftentimes, got to be able to sit in that rage and like, be okay with it because if we don’t, it’s going to, yeah, be volatile oftentimes, as well.

28:23 – So thinking about, I think just tools of survival and thinking about both your films, do you feel like maybe the things you gravitated towards in the past to survive have changed when you’re making this film or after the fact. I’m curious to see if this if these films have kind of made you think differently about the way you’re able to survive in the world and not I think, as artists, as filmmakers, as people, you know, as Black folks, I think all those things are all tied together. I’m just curious about that.

Yace
28:55 – Can I? Is it okay, yeah? I’m sorry. Um, I really kind of used to deal with things in a very, like, lax way like, I will, I’m just going to get through this. When I left, I kind of fled a violent home situation about three years ago. So, in the midst of that, I remember talking to friends like the night it happened. And I was just like, yeah, joking, and then I just slipped it in like, oh, this happened and then they were like, you like, why are you joking about this? Like, are you okay? And I realized that I’m in the process of making this film, which, when sitting back even though Ele is fictional, I see that, there was a lot of violence in my own life that I included into the film and in reflection specifically, like within the pink vignette, when I look at like, my search for womanhood or my performance of it and you know, the various men that had taken advantage of me because they knew that I didn’t know myself, and they knew that I wasn’t this person that I was, you know, kind of putting myself not putting myself in harm’s way, but I was not the person that I was trying to be. And they knew that and just like the all the violence that I experienced to get in this point, I think a tool that I’ve learned from my film is that I’m sitting with shame and interrogating shame is important.

30:41 – In being in the moment and- surviving, you know, violence, I think, shame, your relatio-my relationship with shame has definitely changed. And my relationship with shame, in relation to darkness, has also changed. And you know, how I look at my younger self and how I look back at how I may have handled things, even if I didn’t like, how I handled something at age 15, or six or whatever. I, I talk to myself about that. So that’s what I would say, has changed post film.

Kosisochukwu
31:15 – I really love that. And I think that relationship to shame is such a huge one. And it’s something that I’ve been grappling with. So it’s really lovely to hear, like how that’s evolved for you.

Yace
31:30 – Thank you.

Kosisochukwu
31:33 – For me in terms of like, sorry, it’s like, what has changed for us post making this video?

Mahlet
31:39 – I would say like, maybe like tools or tools of survival? Like, do you feel like this film has made you think differently about it before? And after the fact? Or? Yeah,
Kosisochukwu

31:50 – yeah, yeah, I think so, to be honest, I really do like what I was seeing about rage, I think it’s something that makes me kind of question some of the spaces I find myself within and how I navigate those spaces. So I am a visual artist, but I also am a policy analyst, I work within the federal government in policy. And so that can be kind of hard to kind of navigate, right? So with my art, I’m very critical of a lot of things that go into my job, and I have to, you know, work within those spaces and like deliver on things. And I think, kind of engaging with rage in this way, makes it clear to me that like some spaces don’t need to be rescued. Some of that work is not ours to continue to uphold. And I don’t know necessarily what that means for me, like in practical terms. I have a sense of it. I don’t know when that’s gonna happen. But there’s a kind of desire to no longer give energy to those things that are slowly eating away at me and our communities.

33:01 – And so how do we harness rage in the everyday? How do we harness rage as a kind of ultimate rejection, and refusal? And how like, what was important to me with regards to cassava is that cassava is something you can find anywhere. You go to any grocery store, cassava is there. Piles upon piles upon piles of cassava is there. And so if you can reimagine and look at cassava as this tool, right, as a tool that you can, you just need a little, you just need a little in order to make a poison. And it becomes like anything- can be made into a tool or weapon hidden in plain sight. And so any resource that we have available to us is one that we can use to harness that rage, and to imagine a different world, and to act, right there’s that really important the pain of actually acting. And that comes as a result of this meditation -right?- on the ways in which we are forced to live life within this wake-this wake emerges from transatlantic slavery. In the wake of all of that, it requires this kind of sitting with it. It requires this analysis of it; requires this kind of coming to terms with it, and then actually taking action and saying, Okay, I accept it in a certain sense, but I need to do something different in order to kind of arrive at a different conclusion when in which like, it does feel like a different form of subject-subjectivity is possible.

34:39 – And so yeah, I’m hella angry still. Always angry. Like, it is always there-always there. And I just want to create space for it, and I just want to use it.

Mahlet
34:53 – You mentioned refusal, and you also mentioned acting, and it made me think, refusal is acting on something, you know? I think when we- when, oftentimes, we’re trying to figure out how to figure a situation, if it’s anti-blackness or whatever. And so we have to always act on it. We always have to, like, do something, like no. Sometimes, just refusing, to not act on it is acting on it. And being like, Yep, this is not not my problem, it is not for me. And like having to navigate that right? And when is it worth it? When is it not worth it? How to protect ourselves? Right? And how to keep ourselves keep that rage, also to protect our rage as well, because not everyone’s always gonna also react to the rage, right? And figuring out when is it necessary, and I think, always necessary, but obviously, it’s up to each and every person. But when you said that, those two words, like, acting and refusing, they’re like, kind of like this, you know? Like, and also for the people listening, I’m putting two fingers together and crossing my fingers.

Kosisochukwu
35:46 – I love it and I think it actually speaks to, again, another recent experience I had where I was told, like, I thought I didn’t take enough action and I was told like, you (inaudible) all the action you needed to take. Right? So that refusal to engage, that refusal to stay, is a form of action.

Mahlet
36:03 – Yeah, for sure. If Yace, you want to add anything or any thoughts before I move on to the next question.

Yace
36:09 – No, I just definitely resonate with what Kosi said about still being angry. I think that was like a big aspect of my work. And I think that connects to darkness, my like, reclaiming of it, in a sense, like reclaiming these things that we’re supposed to deem negative. And we’re supposed to shy away from as we move as black people. Anger is, and it’s still very present and I think, in terms of my younger self, especially, what they had to hinder, you know, and they didn’t have all the tools that I may have now, because I know much more than I did then. So I think anger is one of the most legitimate, beautiful feelings, movements. And I think Black people are entitled to it. We we need it, honestly. And I think we need to interrogate often our aversion to it, and where that comes from because, there’s so much that can be done with it. So I just wanted to say I’m so glad that, you know, rage is being brought up in this way and anger. So, thank you for that Kosi.

Mahlet
37:30 – I’m going to ask, probably one and a half questions. I’m going to wrap up really soon. But I was thinking, so thinking through certain histories and places to go back to, what do you feel in the past history or your current history that you’ve turned to understand your practice even more, maybe with these films, specifically. I think we’ve talked about bell hooks and Franz Fanon. And, you know, you’ve mentioned Nollywood films, as well Yace, so I feel like it’s kind of mentioned there, but is anything that jumps out, like certain histories or certain things you kind of go back to to understand your film better, or just like survival overall, as well.

Yace
38:05 – Yeah, I think of my great grandmother, actually. She was in an arranged marriage. And it was a stark age gap to my great grandfather, who I never met, because he passed because he was far older. But she was very unhappy. It was a- which, he was obviously, considering the context of the marriage, and, you know, women in my family- he was described as a nice man, but I think the violation of her agency and having to be in an arranged marriage was just enough, that was enough of a legitimate reason to not want that. And I think about how she stayed within that marriage as my grandmother and my great uncle and my great, great aunt were raised, until they were all of age and out of the house and married and then she left my great grandfather. And I- I don’t want to say resilient because I really despise putting that on Black women, because of how much they have to endure that really isn’t their choice. And sometimes resilience makes it seem like it’s a choice. But, I think about how she survived that period of time. And, how she sat within that to get to the point where she always knew she was gonna leave him. Even though he may have been a benevolent man, she always knew she was- she was gonna leave him. And then later on, after leaving him, she remarried and ended up in an abusive marriage and you know, survived that, and then left. And I think dealing with things in the moment, and always thinking about the version of yourself that will come and the version of yourself that is passed on I’d like to think that’s what she did, um, to survive that, and I just pull a lot from her. She’s the most inspirational woman I know. And may she rest peacefully but there’s just so much of her journey that I used in thinking about how I can sit within, you know, violence in the moment myself and that I think I called to her, it wasn’t intentional. I didn’t think about it during the film. But now thinking about it, it definitely, thinking about how that Gambian woman had to deal with that in a different period of time. Yeah, so I would say that, yeah.

Mahlet
40:38 – Thank you.

Kosisochukwu
40:42 – (Inaudible) unfortunately.

Mahlet
40:43 – Okay, but I think that is a good place to end. Thank you for sharing that story, Yace. Thank you to the both of you for being in conversation with me today. This is prerecorded. So people are watching the evening out in the morning. I hope you have a good day. Have a good evening. The program launched on the 14th and runs into the 21st. Please follow both the artists on social media and I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Yeah. Thanks so much, everyone.

Yace
41:08 – Thank you both so much. It was great talking to you.

Kosisochukwu
41:12 – It was.